Words on the Page

Lori and the Lost Cause

Posted on by lwidmer

Yesterday was fruitful for a Monday, especially a Monday the day after a weekend in which I put yet another 500+ miles on the car. He helped drive, so maybe that’s why neither of us felt drained when we got home. I managed a huge portion of the large project du jour, plus a smaller…

Me and My Shadow

Posted on by lwidmer

I’m just back from western PA where I spent a weekend among the kilted. It never ceases to amaze me how heritage, hobby, or one commonality can bring people from such disparate backgrounds together under one banner. In this case, it was the MacBean banner (for him). I met a distant relative (a Leslie) who…

Know Thy Program

Posted on by lwidmer

Yesterday was one of those maddening, frustrating days of fighting with my software just to get one little thing accomplished. At issue – formatting. I’m working on an insanely large document, formatting the entire mess into something worthy of publication. I was cruising along beautifully when suddenly, something just stopped working. I’m making columns. In…

Bypassing the Trap

Posted on by lwidmer

First, I’d like to pass along my condolences to Devon Ellington, whose beloved cat Elsa passed on after a long, happy life. If you read Devon’s blog, you’ve gotten to know Elsa and also know her health struggles of late. My prayers to you and to Elsa, Devon. Carol Tice has a very interesting post…

The Game Plan

Posted on by lwidmer

Did we really have a long weekend? It seems like yesterday I was thrust back into work. Like walking downhill only to stumble and roll out of control. That was yesterday. I saw it coming. We’d gone to a meditation retreat over the weekend. It was going too blissfully. Still, I got a good deal…

The Hardest Word (But the Most Necessary)

Posted on by lwidmer

I hope everyone had a great holiday weekend! Back to the serious business for some. For the rest of us, we’re serious about business 24/7, 365, with a few days off for good behavior. Maybe it’s because the calendar page turned over, but the first few days of September were a damn sight better than…

Friday Madness

Posted on by lwidmer

I know it’s supposed to be a day people traditionally blow off work – that last summer blowout before we get serious again. But I’m here, for a little while today, to get ahead of the work. That’s either dedication or stupidity. It depends on your perspective. Since I feel like working like you feel…

Bringing Out the N Word

Posted on by lwidmer

I don’t need a calendar to know what time of year it is. I’m busier than I’ve been in months, so it must be September. More to the point, it must be right before Labor Day. Yesterday, I pushed through eight hours of writing to finish one deadline. Today will be no different. Everything is…

Monthly Assessment: August 2010

Posted on by lwidmer

Maybe it’s because it’s been a month of emotional hell on earth, but this month didn’t seem to fly by as the last several have. I was sure busy enough. Perhaps it was juggling that work – I don’t know. Either way, I feel like I’ve lived two months in the span of one. I’m…

Up for Bid

Posted on by lwidmer

It continues to amaze me when I see writers who have built careers on leading other writers to make smart career choices suddenly decide the money’s the goal. One writer, who shall remain nameless, has decided to offer a book on how to make money on one particular bidding site. By bidding site, I’m talking…

Devon Ellington

I'm opposed to paying for listings anyway, especially since most of them pay crapola. If the jobs were actually top dollar, paying MORE than you could find by contacting companies directly, I'd consider a few bucks a month. But $74.99 for 3 months? I better net 7K in that time from jobs on that site, and they don't exist.

Also, I know of more than one situation where a company's hired a writer from a job site who underbid and a second writer who came to them through some other channel at a much higher rate. The work load was the same. Knowing both writers involved, the quality was close (the one who did not use the bidding site was slightly better and more experienced, but not much). The writer who bid in was paid less than half of what the other writer was paid, and when that writer protested, was told, "well, that was your bid. We're honoring the contract to which you agreed." And the other writer, doing the same type of work for the same company, made more than double.

The sites don't truly vet the jobs and they don't advocate for writers' rights or talent. They take money from the posters and the bidders and keep eyes and ears firmly shut.

Again, I think it comes down to laziness. Lazy writers would rather pull up a site and take whatever's presented at whatever rate's presented rather than putting in an extra hour to do some hustle.

A decent rate covers the time spent marketing and looking for work.

I don't buy this "it tides me over" or "easy additional income" justifications, when, with an extra hour's time, you could earn up to 10X more for the same work.

I've certainly done it myself — not shown enough motivation, although I don't pay for listings. But there've been times when all I did was check the sites instead of showing a little initiative and the drop in income taught me real fast to get back on track.

Eileen

I know the writer you're talking about, Lori. He's an icon in the copywriting industry, and has inspired thousands of us. Like you, I'm deeply disappointed in his new book. I'm also surprised he wrote this book. He himself should know better – he's a master marketer with a well planned, well executed marketing system. If anyone understands the importance of self-marketing, it should be him.

Unfortunately, it's not the first time he's done something like this. For a couple years now, he's been putting out ebooks on writing niches that are actually written by someone else and "edited" by him. The sales copy is very cleverly written so that this convenient fact is not exactly front and center. I've bought at least one book and was taken by surprise that he didn't actually write it. In reviewing the sales copy, he does disclose it, but it's easily glossed over.

If there were one thing I'd like to hammer into writers' heads, it would be this: you set your rates, the client doesn't. Any model that puts clients in charge of what you'll be paid is a business model that is doomed to failure.

Lori

Eileen, I think you do know who I mean. I won't name names, but it really upset me to see someone who had worked so hard to craft his image just toss it away on stuff like this. Hey, we all have to eat, but if you talk the talk, you have to walk the walk.

Devon, ironically my first job at Guru did bring in over that $74.99, but to me, it was a wash. I did get more money, but I didn't get anywhere near $7K for that gig. Maybe both gigs combined earned over that – and over a year, not over three months. Not acceptable.

Wendy

There was a person I looked up to, back when I was thinking of getting started in writing. I bought a couple of their ebooks and paid for a short course to learn how to break into it. It was this person that led me down the wrong stinking path and I have never forgotten it.

This person is an icon in a particular segment of the internet marketing community. She advocates for the one thing I completely disagree with. The thing she advocates for is what she used to promote the products that I bought into. So, basically, she was in it for the money and didn't really care or have the right knowledge of helping others get into writing. Her specialty lies within affiliate marketing and not writing, but she does act like she is an expert to go to.

I've never had any luck with the bidding sites. The membership I paid for on one of the sites didn't net me anything. I think I had a free account on guru, which only enables you to see a small portion of the jobs listed. Not worth it.

Lori

Wendy, that sucks. I hate when they "buy in" to something that's clearly not a deal because, for them, it's a money maker. How can you promote something you're not yourself sold on without that additional cash incentive?

Cathy

Seems I got that same email as I am on his mailing list, too. 🙂 It was disappointing.

I found that most of the e-books are written by someone else. I bought quite a few over the years. I like that they're reasonable priced for all you get. As long as they are well-written and contain something I can use, I'm not concerned that he didn't write them. I guess I just expect it now when I receive an offer for one.

But, I have often quoted him when people ask about doing gigs on spec or ridiculously low prices. Even in the sales pitch for the e-book, the amount quoted "so far" for 2010 is nothing I would jump up and down about. I didn't see anything that said it was a side income, so if that's full-time, no thank you.

Come to think of it, even if that's part-time, no thank you. 🙂

Cathy

Uh, make that "reasonably" priced Guess I won't be hired for his next e-book. 😀

Valerie

I've never gone on any of those bidding sites. A good friend of mine did when she was desperate for work and it seemed to begin a downward spiral for her. I found her experience demoralizing and decided to avoid the whole system.

In general, it sounds like the "clients" involved are more concerned with rates than quality and that usually leads to a lousy working relationship.

Jake P

I briefly tried and quickly abandoned bidding sites back in the early 2000s during a time when business was slow. The experience was so lame, I haven't been tempted to give them a second chance. Cold calling was a MUCH better solution.

As far as your comment about this particular writer, I am reminded of Robert "Rich Dad Poor Dad" Kiyosaki, whom I interviewed a few years ago for a magazine profile. The aha moment for me was when he disclosed that he didn't make his fortune in real estate — he made it writing and self-publishing books, and THEN he invested it into real estate. I reckon Mr. Unnamed hasn't done much with the bidding sites except to research them…

Lori

Jake, I'm doubting Mr. Unnamed has even researched them. Someone else is ghosting.

Cathy, I bet you could be hired, but your price would be too high. 😉

Irreverent Freelancer

I come at this from a different perspective since early on in my career I had substantial success with a certain bidding site. That goes all the way back to when it was completely free to join and bid … and my very few competitors were almost all Americans. Slowly, the price of bidding increased while the quality of the projects greatly declined. The marketplace also became flooded with third world bidders. But none of that is what ultimately turned me away from the model. It was the treatment I received from the bidding site (for instance, punishing me for asserting my first amendment rights in response to their tying me with porn) and their complete and utter siding with buyers as opposed to the service providers who bring in their income in ALL matters.

But, since I had the inside scoop on this site for so long, and it's the one said copywriter is advocating, I would bet a real pretty penny that he's receiving a generous kickback from the bidding site for his promotion of them in this ebook. It's a fact that said bidding site pays certain providers $35-$40 per hour to tout them in the social media sphere and to temper online rantings about them.

Lori

So you're saying they're not mailing you a check anytime soon, eh Kathy? LOL

If that's what this writer is doing, I'm doubly shocked and more than a little disgusted. Here's the thing – if you position yourself as an expert who can help writers make smart choices in their careers, and if you position yourself as the go-to source for career building advice, you cannot in good conscience get paid to stump for a company while pretending you're not.

I'm all for writers making smart choices, and for a while some of these bidding sites did try to do the right thing. But as you say, when the model changes and there's no support for the content creators, it's no longer a smart choice.

acbrandon

First, I'd like to say that this book is not all that new. It's been around for a while. I also bought the e-book thinking there was some secret to making money on this site. I'll say I've made about $1,500 from bidding sites over the past three years. I've probably spent that much on memberships and e-books. The benefit of these sites is that I've gotten some decent paying work from customers who found my profile on a couple of these sites. The work I have completed on bidding sites was long hours and low pay. I never enjoyed it.

The e-book itself is a snooze. I didn't learn anything that I didn't already know. I agree with Irrelevant Freelancer, these sites have become flooded with workers willing to write for next to nothing.

It takes old-fashioned ingenuity and hard work to find quality jobs – and they are out there. You just have to look for them.

Lori

Hi AC! Glad you commented.

I tend to agree with you and Kathy on the earnings potential. It's not there. I found bidding sites to be a frenzied free-for-all where even veiled bidding created a firestorm of crazed bidding. Like I said in my post, I was taken to task by clients who thought I was crazy for asking a decent rate. I won't apologize for charging what I have to in order to earn a decent living.

I had wondered if that sort of book would hold any great secrets. I suspect the writer's success and earnings came from lots of compromise on the pay rate. I'm not willing to do that.

acbrandon

Oh, that's one of the secrets. You have to be willing to enter a "competitive" bid. Ugh. Which is nothing. I can't tell you how many declined bids I've received from Bid Too High. You bet your bottom dollar it's too high. I don't work for nothing!

Wendy

Isn't the bidding site in question here, one that uses the Big Brother program? The program that enables the clients to spy on your work? I'm not too big on letting someone else dictate how I will do the work when I'm not an employee. Jenn's been good at providing info. on that. I just can't seem to remember which site it was.

Jake P

Of course, Kiyosaki doesn't research or write his books either, so maybe there's method in their respective madnesses.

In any event, the bidding market remains one of many I'll gladly leave to those who enjoy hoarding the untold riches.

Irreverent Freelancer

Wendy, it's not the site you're thinking of, but it has recently, from what I've been told anyway, instituted that same Big Brother webcam-watching functionality on hourly jobs.

Lori

I suspect the riches will remain untold, Jake. 😉

Kathy and Wendy, I'd no sooner work for someone who looks over my shoulder than I'd work for someone who doesn't pay. Isn't that the most ridiculous behavior from a client? If they have time to monitor you, they have time to do the damn job themselves. And they should.

Ashley

At least one university professor is suggesting Elance to students. A friend of mine was very excited to tell me about Elance as an opportunity for me. I kindly educated her as to the low pay and competition on these sites. I told her I'd never used them so I couldn't say first-hand that they were awful, but that I'd heard several strong opinions on the sites and have decided to stay away. As Valerie mentioned, I think working under those conditions would lead to quick burn out, and I want to enjoy this career, not miss working as a fulltime employee.

becky

I refused to finish signing up for ODesk once I saw the monitoring thing. I don't think so. Waiting for the IRS to come down on it as too close to employee relationship rather than freelance (one can hope, right?).

I signed up for Guru a long time ago, did a few editing jobs, but never found anything else that was reasonable. Still have my profile up, actually, but am not active. (Had a potential client contact me because of that profile, too, believe it or not.)

Jessica Mason

I really appreciate you telling it like it is. I am really new to the freelance writing world (as in one article published to date) and even I could tell after a month or so of messing around with them that bidding sites and content farms are a huge waste of time. I feel so much better now that I've stopped bothering and gone back to old-fashioned querying for jobs. Still, there seems to me to be a shortage of online resources for beginners who are really serious about writing. So far I like WM Freelance Writer's Connection and All Freelance Writing along with a few smaller blogs, such as yours.

Lori

Jessica, welcome. And I agree – there is a shortage. Anne Wayman over at About Freelance Writing does try, but it's not her full-time job.

Try Jenn Mattern's All Freelance Writing, Allena Tapia's About.com Freelance Writing, And Anne's site. It'll give you a start.

Jenn Mattern

Wendy — Elance is the one we went after for the spyware-like software with potential legal implications for some "clients" and providers. But they're not the only ones. Guru did it first. And I was informed by a rep with the company after our Elance piece that RentACoder offers buyers something similar now too.

Diana

OK, so I'm stumbling on this via your "top posts of the year" post. Cheers for successful direction 😉

Question, if I may. Bear with me as I digress.

My freelance career started with Elance and I've seen the seriously crazy jobs/bids out there. In my naivety I even worked with a few of those clients that wanted the world for $5/post. As I move along in the business I'm noticing that some clients found via Elance are interested in something more (and paying the higher rates that go along with it), but they are few and far between. Is it possible to weed those out while using the site? Or are you better off simply building a portfolio/platform and then going after them yourself?

I'm skeptical, probably only because these bidding sites are almost all that I know (I've been working in freelance since 2009). I don't have my own site yet (gasp!) but my work's been all over the place. I'm ready to start earning what y'all claim to be earning and ditching the bidding site… but then my body panics. Does anyone know where I can find some balls to jump off this crowded train and chart my own course?

(That was more than one question… my apologies.)

Lori

Great question, Diana.

In general, I think it's always better to build your portfolio minus these job sites. That said, I had one long-term client from one of those sites. However, that's the exception, not the rule.

You sound like you need a primer in how to get up and going. Take a look over the posts on this site, and on All Freelance Writing and About Freelance Writing (both great resources). If you have more questions, I'm always here to help. Feel free to ask!