With a raging debate being rehashed over on dear friend Anne Wayman’s site, I added my thoughts once more on the side of writers valuing their skills enough to demand more than $10-20 an article. The resistance by one poster in particular was so caustic I’ve decided no more. No more will I add my two cents. If you want to work for $10 an article, good luck to you. I’ll not debate you or interact with you on that point. That’s billable time wasted arguing simple math. No thanks. I’ll just be over here making 150 times more per article.
The only reason I took up this banner in the first place was the obvious affects that online-based, low-paying gigs have on those of us with established, higher-paying career backgrounds. But after reading Peter Bowerman’s excellent article on his blog last week regarding the question of the “state” of freelancing, I realized realities create themselves when we buy into them. He’s right – it’s too easy to fall into a victim role and use the impact of this, that, or another thing on the market as to why we’re making too little.
Remember how I went on about not accepting the “recession” as an excuse? Well, I’m about to apply that to all content mills and gawd-awful gig offers. I will no longer look at those as my reason for getting lower-priced offers. No matter how true it may be, I won’t acknowledge it. I’ll simply ask for and expect my rate, outside influences be damned. The clients either pay for the value of what I offer or they don’t. It really is that simple. Oh, it’ll still tick me off royally, but it will end there. I’ve no time for that. I’d much rather be working.
If you write for a content mill, you’re welcome here. In fact, you’ve always been welcome here. You’re the folks I had in mind when I put together all those posts over the last few years about marketing and query writing and building a better business. I don’t agree with your choice, but I’m going back to my old live-and-let-live stand. And I’ll break my neck to help you make a better choice if you’re willing. I won’t hold it against you, but I won’t sympathize if you’re too busy writing 10 articles an hour to break loose and get better clients.
Deb Ng said something on one of the blog posts on Anne’s site that made sense. This issue has managed to divide the writing community, and that’s never a good thing. While each side will always hold very disparate opinions on this topic, I no longer care if writers make that choice. Nor do I care if they wallow in content mill purgatory for twenty years. If you can eke out a living that way, more power to you. I’ll be busy making money my way, which works perfectly for me.
That doesn’t mean I won’t stop having the annual Writers Worth Day. If it helps one writer make smarter choices that improves the career, I’ve done more than I could hope for. But it does mean I will no longer justify my career to strangers, nor will I argue math problems with people who amend figures and dream up ridiculous scenarios to prove their way is the better way. If they are happy working that hard for that little, then keep on smiling.
Debates like this are pointless and tiresome. And because those I’ve encountered from the side of content mills (not all, but some very outspoken people) have taken the name-calling, snide-remark stance, I’m done. Professionals don’t act like that, especially to each other. Which proves my point that these particularly nasty people aren’t professionals, but I digress.
So I say let’s let the wheat separate from the chaff, so to speak. Those who are strong enough and serious enough about their careers will survive no matter what path they take. I won’t change my opinion, but I won’t argue the same old same old ad nauseum. To those of you who disagree, who say we’re jealous or clueless or whatever the argument-du-jour is, I say this: two articles still net me $3K-$5K. Why exactly would I be jealous? The time you’ve spent arguing with me could have been spent marketing for higher-paying work. You are welcome to disagree. You are not welcome to hang assumptions on my opinion. I’ll be more than happy to tell you in detail, no guesswork involved.
After reading many comments from the particularly nasty poster over the past few months, I'm honestly starting to think there are some sponsorship or perhaps "other" issues at work here.
I started out writing 500-word articles for sites for $10. At the time, I was thrilled. After about six months of that, I was starting to get burned out. I feel lucky there were people out there like you to tell me I could make more, because I really (like many people) had no idea. I'm closing in on my third year now, and have managed to almost double my income since starting in 2007. I earn 5-15times per article as I did when I started.
I still don't earn what many do, but it's nice to know it's possible. I have no trouble turning down work because I know (now) there are better assignments out there. Why, why, why aren't people interested in learning how to make more? Why do they insist they are right when there are people with 15 or 20 years of experience kindly telling them there is a better way? I'll never understand it.
Krista, I'm glad you're making more, too. 🙂
I think the answer to your question is this – inertia is easier than getting up and trying something new. It's less scary to stay put, and it's so much easier to avoid rejection when everything is accepted, despite the awful pay. If you convince yourself it takes hours of your life per day to find new clients, you justify not learning how and not trying harder.
I'm glad you reached this point. YOu're right — those of us who are professionals will continue to survive and thrive getting paid a good wage. Let the others wallow.
Because, let's face it, if they were good enough to get paid more ethan $10/article and motivated enough to find those markets, that's what they'd be earning.
As I've said numerous times, more and more legit employers won't hire content mill writers because they've been burned by them. Let the content mill writers stay in their mills. More higher paying work for the rest of us.
The unfortunate thing is that research on the internet is now even more dicey, because you've really got to double and triple check the source — you can't trust information you find on a mill content site because there's no way of knowing if that particular writer really put in the research and the info is legitimate.
So the rest of us have to be truly wary when we're researching online.
Hi Lori.
I'm so glad you've got that burden off your back. As I've said many times before, I've felt like this was one of those debates where each side feels it's right, and each will argue to the death to assert it.
However, in this case, I don't think there's a debate at all. Getting paid pennies for your work is idiotic. There's no argument that could convince me otherwise.
So I've chosen not to engage. Not worth my time or grief. And I feel somewhat vindicated that you've come to that position, too!
Viva a living pay!
Wow. I just read that post and all 47 comments and, like, WOW.
I agree with you, Lori. You've stated where you stand on the issue and why, and let's face it, it's not for your own gain that you've done it. It's all there now for everyone to read and digest and make up their own mind. For the record, I'm with you, but I think you know that already. 😉
Well worse, I revisited the thread in question this morning (I wrote this post on Friday afternoon at the height of my "whatever" moment). I had overlooked someone else's remarks directed at me. My post had been written based solely on what the author of the post was being hit with. I swear I had no idea it was there until this morning, but apparently I'm elite for not enjoying people sniping at me for making more. I'd had a tweet up that said so. That tweet was based on one person's getting rather nasty about my choices. This dude found it his business to bring that up and call me elitist.
Again, the professional writers I've come across don't resort to name-calling. Enough said.
Devon, I should just listen to you from the outset. You called this a year or so ago. I thought I was doing some good, so I took up the banner. I'll still promote ways for others to grow business, but I'm beyond caring what jobs anyone takes as long as they don't take mine!
Gabriella, good insight. No one will budge on this issue. It's time to agree to disagree. 🙂
Diane, thank you for being with me. 🙂 That means a lot. I truly don't want the division at all. I started all this drum pounding in an attempt to say "Hello! There's a better way!" I get passionate about my causes, and I think that's easily misinterpreted.
Lori, as a wise journalist once said, you can't save the world from bad writing. Truth is, you do still care, and so do I. But we know the real work is out there, and the mills, like certain magazines (koffwritersdigestkoff) will continue to live on the desperate amateurs they need to fill up the shallow end of the pool.
And I think you've invested enough energy on this issue to light this year's Christmas tree.
I wonder what magazine you mean, Joseph? Gosh, I wish you were more direct! 🙂
Yes, it's tough to turn off the care part. It's easy to turn away from the beligerence and argument, though. I'll just be mumbling more to myself. 😉
OK, finished an article and just had time to go read all the comments. What an absolute waste of time!
Loved Kevin's post: "I think I speak for writers on both sides of this debate when I say T.W. Anderson please stop talking. You can’t comment on any blog without publishing a self serving, thousand word post saying nothing about the discussion at hand…"
Metoothinks (I just made up that word, obviously) that TW doth protest too much. Taint no way he's making that much money on content mills. I just don't believe it. And I also think there's a chance he's a plant.
Anyway, you're right to disengage, Lori. Can't win in that kind of atmosphere.
Ah, I fondly remember the says when I could net $3K-5K with one or two articles. Then many of the publications I write for started assigning shorter and shorter features. I can't remember the last time I had a 3,000-word assignment. And the only 2,000-word pieces have been for places that don't pay $1/word.
My best payday ever: $1/word for a 4,700-word article. That trade magazine folded in 2001. Beats the $2/word I was paid for a 1,500-word article back in 2003 by a major consumer magazine.
I'm not blaming content mills for lower pay. I blame the ever-shrinking attention span of the typical reader. (And yes, Lori. I am constantly pitching my services and article ideas to different publications to find places that assign long articles for decent pay.)
He's a plant or genuinely deluded…I can't figure out which.
I grew tired of the "math" and scenarios months ago. If writer A writes an article for $1500 in 5 hours, and writer B writes 60 articles an hour at $20 each and works for 5 hours, they've made the same. Do the math, people. 😉
If I didn't really believe some of these people genuinely believe they are right and actually presenting logical arguments, it would be funny.
They've made the same, but one's exhausted!
Paula, the markets are out there. It just takes a bit more digging. And this time of year, all magazine budgets are blown out of the water. January can't come fast enough!
Krista, the math was a bit delusional, wasn't it? I was surprised to see my simple math problem turned on its ear, but it's how that person in particular tries to make a case. It's faulty math. Come to me with actual facts and I'm happy to listen.
Honestly, the nastiness and name-calling have been seen on both sides of the fence. I think it's great to disagree and share your view points about the topic, but you do lose some professional points with the bickering.
As for the particular poster being referenced here; he isn't a plant. His motives are all wrong for that.
I agree his posts are long-winded, and don't usually contain anything of value to add to the conversation. His math stems from "hype" figures and is probably meant to distract you from the real point, but I say he's not a plant. Probably someone riding the wave of controversy and using it for guru status. He does offer writing consulting services, you know.
For me, this debate has never been about some threat to my own rates. At the beginning of my career I believed the ultra-pro content millers and thought it was the best (and possibly only) way to make it as a new freelancer without a degree. Once I learned how wrong I was I started using my own blog as a platform for sharing that information.
I began speaking out on other blogs in opposition to blog posts and comments that presented this as a new school/old school argument or a "journalists are jealous" debate and tried to explain that they were not presenting a fair representation of content mill work or the motives behind people who argued against them. I wanted the information to be there for new freelancers so they wouldn't give up as I might have if I hadn't learned about the many different markets within the field.
Instead of working on communicating with me (someone who HAD worked quite a bit with Demand and Textbroker and had an experienced POV) I was called hostile, malcontent, self-serving, and fake in my concern. I was attacked for not paying for guest posts on my own blog, accused of trying to profit off a debate, accused of treating other freelancers like they were stupid and couldn't make their own decisions, my blog was trolled and I was attacked multiple times on blogs other than my own in the comment sections of posts I wasn't even commenting on–and it's not like I'm a real force in the industry for goodness' sake. I can only imagine what Angela Hoy is dealing with, cripes.
Have I lost my temper in some threads and been occasionally inappropriate? Sure. But as I look back on those rare instances (really only one that I can think of), I actually still agree with myself. I said it on Erik Sherman's blog and apologized, but this time I won't apologize. I don't care anymore about those writers who want to work full time for and argue passionately for content mills. When you are ready for an additional point of view, hopefully you'll find it. But I'm done trying to find you and deliver it. Yeah, I know you didn't ask me for it–I mistakenly thought the content mill workers were like little mini Yos desperate to work for themselves but not sure how they would at content mill rates and pace. But they aren't–and that's where my motivation (saving myself in retrospect) led me into this ridiculous crapfest of animosity and aspersion.
I just wish others could examine their own motivation instead of spending so much time deciding what everyone else's was.
That really wasn't so much a comment as it was a rant/vent. Sorry Lori 🙂
No apologies necessary, Yo. I love your perspective. I think when we're passionate about something, sometimes the passion overcomes tempered response. And that's a good thing. 🙂
I like what you said here: "But I'm done trying to find you and deliver it." There's where I went wrong, too. I was leading, but I forgot to check if anyone was interested in following.
Wendy, I agree. There's been strong words on both sides, and I don't agree with any of it. Speaking your mind is fine – character assassination is not. I think you may be right also about the motives of one of the particularly heinous posters. Bad press is better than none?
As a former high school teacher, I'm *quite* familiar with the concept of being belittled & berated by those one is attempting to assist. Still, that never quite prepares me for the vitriol that some persist on spewing toward those who are merely trying to make their corner of the world just a little bit better.
I don't have much to add to what the others have posted, other than to tell you how much I appreciate the great work you've done on this topic. I have no doubt that you've helped far more folks than you'll ever realize, & you've done it in manner that makes me proud to share a profession with you.
As for your detractors, I'll close with a quote from ol' Bert Einstein: "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Okay, I'm still getting up to speed after vacation, but doesn't that poster who is arguing with you claim to be able to make $115,000/year if he worked solely with Demand Studios (which pays MORE than some of the sites he writes for)? Puhlease. If I understand correctly, Demand pays $15 per article. He says he works 8-hour days. So let's say 40 hours per week and 48 weeks per year to accommodate his six weekly jaunts to Europe. He would still have to write four 500-word articles every single hour, every single working day, every non-Europe-jaunting week of the year. Maybe for one week, or even a month, but there's no way someone is going to maintain that level of churning indefinitely … and I won't even touch the level of quality that will result from such assembly line processing. Who could possibly be jealous of a working scenario like that?
I pretty much stay out of the content mill debate because frankly I'm thankful I have enough work that pays way more so that I don't have to resort to such slavery. If others want to tie themselves to the whipping post like that, it's their call. Meanwhile, I'll enjoy my freedom.
You're very kind, Hugh. Thank you. I'm very glad to share career space with you, as well. 🙂 LOVE the quote. It may replace my own, which is, "Wherever you go, there you are."
I will admit to some embarrassment due to my zealous approach on this topic. I get a bit "worked up" as my mother says. It can be misinterpreted. I'm also a bit stubborn, so I push a bit more than I should. Telling people it's for their own good doesn't make it any easier to take, I suppose. 😉
Kathy, your argument is exceptionally sound. It's exactly the type of math that's going to get rewritten to serve this guy's needs. I'm fine with him working his arse off for his Porsche. I'm not fine with his flawed math. If he wants to show actual figures that represent reality, I'm all for that. But taking my very simple scenario and inserting his own figures to get to the number he wants isn't going to convince anyone.
I'm taking the same stance – if you think it's a great career move to work so hard, more power to you. I'll do it my way, thank you.
I don't think he actually works 8-hour days. Instead, he says if he "did" work 8-hour days, he would have a six-figure income from Demand. In fact, he has only written a few articles for Demand (something like 40). The reason he does not and has not written more (I presume) is because it is impossible to maintain that level of output (4 articles per hour for 8 hours each day). If I am wrong about what I understood, feel free to correct me.
Wow. That would change the game, wouldn't it? I can't verify that either, Anonymous. I'll dig around later, but I suspect you're correct. I know I sure couldn't take that kind of speed and maintain accuracy and originality!
He does say he's only written 40 articles for Demand and zero for eHow. I guess my question would be how can you write an article, with no research, on affording a Porsche with your eHow earnings? I suppose it's creative license?
Actually, it was someone else who made the tons of money from ehow. I believe he was just saying that one could possibly afford a porsche by writing for ehow. If I remember that right. I also believe he plans to write more for Demand next year.
I understand there's someone else planning a 2 day non-stop writing event coming up. That will be interesting to see how it comes out.
Admittedly, I could have confused the two main detractors' points, so double check their "facts," Lori, before you do a math post.
Argh, I don't even know why I'm weighing in on this again, because, honestly, I'm soooo bored of this subject! It's just that new writers, new freelancers jumping in are so, SO confused by this subject (my god I have the emails to prove it), and we (you, me, anne, deb, TW, whomever) are not making much headway in clarifying things for them. I think their heads are spinning. Heck mine is too.
One thing that has come out of this, though, Lori, is that I am on your blog much more often, on Deb's blog much more often, and I am finding that very helpful– reading other professionals.
I am looking forward (now) to what else you have to say! What else is going on> And what other opinions do you (strongly) hold about htis career?
Allena, totally agree. Sick of the topic and, as you say, there's no headway here at all. Newbies are just as lost as ever now. That's the real crime in all this.
My stronger opinions include the importance of marketing when you're busy and making marketing a small part of your day – not the main event. 😉
Kathy, I'm an English major. The math will remain a mystery. LOL